In a recent episode of The Verge’s Decoder podcast, Notion CEO Ivan Zhao sat down with host Nilay Patel to explore the evolving world of productivity tools, emphasizing the need for users to expect more from their software. Zhao, known for his minimalist approach to design, argued that many current applications fall short in adaptability, often forcing users into rigid workflows that stifle creativity. He highlighted Notion’s all-in-one platform as a counterpoint, blending notes, databases and project management into a seamless experience.

Drawing from his background as a designer, Zhao stressed the importance of intuitive interfaces that empower rather than constrain. “We want tools that feel like an extension of your brain,” he said, critiquing legacy software giants for their outdated models. This perspective aligns with Notion’s rapid growth, now boasting millions of users who customize workspaces for everything from personal journaling to enterprise collaboration.

AI’s Role in Redefining Productivity

Zhao delved into artificial intelligence as a transformative force, predicting that AI agents will soon handle mundane tasks, freeing humans for higher-level thinking. In the interview, available at The Verge, he described Notion’s integration of AI features like automated summarization and content generation, which have already boosted user efficiency. He cautioned, however, against over-reliance on AI, advocating for designs that maintain human oversight to avoid errors.

This vision echoes discussions in other forums, such as Zhao’s appearance on Lenny’s Newsletter, where he detailed Notion’s lean team structure enabling quick iterations on AI tools. There, as reported in the March 6, 2025, edition, Zhao revealed how community feedback shaped these advancements, turning potential pitfalls into strengths.

Challenges of Building Horizontal Software

The conversation turned to the “joy and suffering” of creating horizontal platforms, a theme Zhao has explored in interviews like his February 2025 chat on the Better Creating podcast. He admitted that Notion’s broad applicability invites complexity, with users sometimes overwhelmed by customization options. Yet, this flexibility is key to its appeal, allowing it to compete with specialized apps from Microsoft and Google.

Zhao shared anecdotes from Notion’s near-collapse during the Covid era, a story he recounted in detail on Lenny’s Newsletter, illustrating how pivoting to remote-friendly features saved the company. Today, with a valuation exceeding $10 billion as noted in a Forbes article from April 2024, Notion aims to become the “AI everything app” for workplaces.

The Future of Software Design

Looking ahead, Zhao envisions a shift toward agentic systems where software anticipates needs, much like Microsoft’s CTO Kevin Scott discussed in a separate Decoder episode on The Verge from May 2025. For Notion, this means embedding more predictive AI to streamline knowledge bases and project management, areas Zhao highlighted in a 2023 Moneycontrol interview as prime for innovation.

He urged industry insiders to demand better tools, warning that stagnant designs could hinder progress. As Zhao put it, the future belongs to software that evolves with users, not against them. This philosophy, honed through Notion’s trials, positions the company at the forefront of a productivity revolution, blending design elegance with AI prowess to redefine how we work.