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Despite New Panda Guidelines, Google Still Burying Authoritative Results

Health and Legal Queries Show Importance of Authority

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  1. Hey Chris, great coverage on this. Check the web site I listed. My wife frequents that site and she pointed out this post to me. 200 teachers rated the actual top 10 results of the power players in search.

    Big G was third best.

    If you read their comments a number of groups of teachers outside the site has verified their reviews.

    • Thanks Nancy. The issue certainly does extend beyond just legal and health-related queries. I’d be interested to see if Quora results start ranking more in the future, as experts and executives often provide authoritative info there as well.

  2. I think you have misunderstood the purpose of that list of questions Google published. They are not guidelines. Google’s Webmaster Guidelines are much more clear and specific than the list of questions Amit Singhal shared last week.

    In my opinion, the questions are intended to illustrate how people can look at their sites in a new way, overcoming the denial that has set in over their being downgraded by Panda. These are not questions by which we can judge the quality of search results.

    • I don’t think I’ve misunderstood the intent of the questions. As I noted, they’re not ranking signals. I realize that they’re not official guidelines, but they’re clearly designed to give publishers a “guide’ as to how to approach content quality.

      In fact, the exact title of Google’s post listing the questions is “More Guidance on building high-quality sites”. These are things Google is looking at as “what counts as a high-quality site”.

      Google also says, “These are the kinds of questions we ask ourselves as we write algorithms that attempt to assess site quality.”

      That said, you make a fair point in that these are different than Google’s “webmaster guidelines”.

  3. “Queries related to things like health or law demand authoritative advice.”

    I love what you did there!

  4. I think the bigger question is can Google or any SE rightly derive authority? You are asking a program to know whether an author is a MD or professional writer? And if so, is the MDs content actually more correct (best result) for the given query. The problem with this approach is it would actually require a human to make that determination and have a “manual” addition in that pages ranking entered. I don’t think that is feasible. And of course what happens when another MD decides he is actually more authoritative than the first?

    Any SE has to take numerous signals into account to arrive at the algorithmically best result. Then it is up to us humans to use our brains and look for the results that we believe our best.

    If you are dealing with Level 4 Brain Cancer and looking for information outside of what your Dr. provided, I hope you spend a good amount of time on the research. We aren’t talking about buying a blue widget, we are talking about your life or the life of a loved one.

    Same thing with law information. At some point, you as the human have to be responsible to do some of your own research and dig deep. If we believe that the computer has to give us the best answer and not do any of our own work, then we are in a heap of trouble and singularity may come much sooner than later. :O)

    • Yes, I definitely hope people are doing more research than just looking at the top Google result for their health advice. Still, the search engine’s job is to deliver the most relevant information.

      • PP

        Are you asking the SE to replace the human brain? Pretty soon the SE will be sued because it served up the wrong page and some acted on it.

        • I think the human brain will remain an important resource until it gets replaced with a computer itself.

  5. If Google were serious about improving the quality of search results, the largest improvement they could make is removing ehow from the directory entirely.

    Ehow’s articles range from useless, to patronizing, to often times potentially costly, and even dangerous, for a reader that actually takes the advice seriously. I am not basing this on health & law, two subjects I am most assuredly not qualified to talk on. But their DIY, repair, and related articles, which I am qualified to rate, are horrid, to say the least.

    For examples of stupid & useless google ehow & “build a guitar amp” (or build a number of other things). For dangerous, try ehow & “fix brakes”, or repair electric, and the biggest one for wasting money and causing expensive problems “repair plumbing”.

    How they get to the top of google, while many other legitimate, authoritative and even popular sites struggle, leads me to believe they may be “violating” some terms & conditions. How they managed to not get banned, while many useful sites seem to get banned because of a simple misunderstanding, or unintentional mis-step, is also beyond me.

    As someone who has long tried to put out useful DIY info (when I have the time and money), eHow has stuck in my craw for a long time as the worst of the worst.

    • I agree that eHow and countless other “expert advice” websites with anonymous helpers should not be given so much importance in the rankings.

  6. Your article assumes that Avvo is actually a quality website. That is far from clear. Their method of rating attorneys (and probably doctors) is unimpressive and seems heavily influenced by whether the attorneys sign up on the site, and possibly on how much the lawyers pay for their listing. I’ve seen plenty of great lawyers on their site with relatively low ratings along with unimpressive lawyers with high ratings.

    • Fair point. I’m not personally vouching for ratings system, or saying that the site has the best ratings (or that it has bad ratings), but there is something to be said about the fact that they’re all certified professionals. I’m still going to place a little more confidence in a medical doctor’s thoughts on diabetes than a freelance writer that doesn’t practice medicine.

      • Another medical site that have been badly hit by the “Panda” update is eHealthMD – take one look at their editorial team and I think it’s fair to say they’re likely to know what they’re talking about

        http://ehealthmd.com/eboard.html

  7. The algorithm has hurt my search results. I see in Google Webmaster HTML suggestions about 50 pages that have supposed duplicate title tags, but the problem is with Google Bot. They are listed as duplicated because Google bot is capitalizing and lower casing the same urls. Like this: /Mattel-Hot-Wheels/hotwheelblue14.asp
    /mattel-hot-wheels/hotwheelblue14.asp
    I don’t know for sure, but my numbers a down. Working very hard to fix this problem.

    • That is not new with Panda

  8. I think in a few years, we’ll look back at 2009 or so as the peak for Google, at least as far as search is concerned. Maybe they’ll be focused on their office suite or something by then, and not care. But I’ve already switched to using Yahoo for my own searching, and my results are comparable to Google’s — maybe not noticeably better, but not worse either. Yet Yahoo somehow delivers this without massive controversy over its rankings algorithm every so often.

    I have clients who have had huge drops in rankings and traffic from Google at various times in the past few years. Granted, they don’t care as much about their traffic from the other search engines, because there isn’t as much of it. But if I check that traffic, it’s generally been consistent over time, without the drastic swings you get from google.

  9. Thanks for putting out real examples of epic fail going on with Google. I could sit here all day and show other points but I’m exhausted enough as is. Scraped content is still raging above original producers, sites with mostly paid links wreaking havoc..what’s next? Well Matt and others on the webspam team are going after link profiles next, so that should throw an interesting factor into the algorithm.

    Hopefully they do a better job with that update!

  10. Greg

    I don’t think anyone should be relying on the Internet, much less, Google search results to discover answers related to health issues especially concerns related to cancer or diabetes. I think almost all doctors would agree with this statement. In the end, if anyone is going to use the Internet for these purposes, they need to take the responsibility to validate and confirm information ideally through their doctor not by relying on the whether it comes back 1st or 5th in search results. If people are so naive as to think well if Google returns this article at the top, it must be the definitive answer to my cancer question then they have bigger problems.

    • It’s one thing to rely on a top result and another to have an authoritative starting point.

      • Greg

        So you think Google can the determine the one authoritative starting point for every user who enters the query “diabetes”? What is authoritative for you may not be for me…in the example you give above about an eHow article…is the information in the article incorrect? Do you contend it is false or invalid information or just because it isn’t from a doctor, it should not be returned higher than other articles?

        • I do not contend that it is false information, but there are no resources linked to to lend credibility either. That’s just it. There’s not much to gage how trustworthy the information is. Something coming from a licensed medical doctor (while not necessarily the one perfect result, does tend to suggest a bit more credibility).

  11. Your article mentioned that doctors hate to be quoted on the internet for fear of reprecussions. In the same way, I’d bet many website owners strongly agree with your articles but are reluctant to openly comment about Google in negative ways. Just sayin’…

  12. Matt

    The results are terrible lately. I was looking for an ‘outdoor electrical socket’ today and was literally getting pissed off at the terrible quality of the serps.

    First was amazon, fine, somewhat makes sense. The next several results were “how to’ sites like ehow about ‘how to install an outdoor electrical socket’ – if I wanted to know how to install one, that’s what I would have searched for. I was looking for product results, and according to google amazon is the only option.

    Not to mention, the number 7 results was a stock clipart site….come on. Really? I want an outdoor electrical socket. Not clipart of one.

    Similar results when looking for a tent today.

    Google – what happened to you?

    • Greg

      Try clicking on shopping in Google instead of Web if you want product results…learn the tool!

      • Ditto, there is many aspects of Google search to help you focus the search better.

  13. I noticed dramatic search result quality degradation. Some websites have come to the top having not much to do with the keywords. Other thing: web pages having some inbound links to main page are ranking better on under pages without any back links than the linked page. If it continues like that I will soon start to use bing instead of google.

  14. While google puts a websites traffic as their primary qualification for top ranking the results can’t be what they are touting. They are in the business of making money. Traffic brings money.

    • Well, if you consider the fact that almost none of the “authoritative” websites in the health industry run Google ads, then it seems like Google shot itself in the foot.

      On the other hand, junk micro-sites, seemingly patched together by a group of colorblind dyslexics, are doing much better in the results, now. Many of them beat quality sites in the same field on a relatively consistent basis just because they have the exact keyphrase in their domain.

  15. Google’s algorithym has definitely NOT improved. Worse, the continued top placement of eHow articles – mostly crap for the large part – can only mean one of three things…

    1. Google is maintaining some sort of whitelist and providing exceptions for select sites.

    2. Google’s engineers have replaced the RedBull they normally drink during long cramming sessions with methamphetamine.

    3. Google is not longer interested in delivering the most relevant, credible results to their customers.

    No option is particularly confidence inspiring, IMHO.

    • Carol

      I’ve also been wondering about your first point. I’m sure that Google makes scads and scads of money from eHow ads. If Google is serious, why doesn’t it assign some kind of special identifier to content mills that will result in their automatically going low in the search results?

  16. It happens through all media forms. I am a Dentist in the UK and to stay in practice we MUST redo a core of knowledge in radiology every 5 years. One of my clients expressed concern that I did not use a lead apron. I explained that using one actually reflected the radiation back into the body and bounced it around, increasing the dosage.

    I received a letter from her quoting a DR Oz in the US who expressed his concerns. Dr Oz has NO training in radiology and seems to express views in direct conflict with all scientific research and authority yet he comes out on top in the opinion stakes.

    I see website promotions for toothe whitening that also fly in the face of real life facts too.

    Not sure what Google can do about it though. How to seperate the good from the bad.

    My personal promotions are about hobbies that I know and enjoy, reluctant to step into uncharted waters.

      • My point exactly Kim. The smoking tooth is a case in point.

        • My point exactly Kim. The smoking tooth is a case in point. Totally non scientific and completely debunked at http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4036 Absolutely no real scientific basis and flying in the face of all the thousands of research papers that have been carried out. (although we should all keep an open mind)

          Once again style wins over substance.

          But this is not really the venue to discuss the amalgam debate, so I will not be posting again in this topic. I am more concerned about Google and how it affects my other businesses.

          • Kim

            The “debunking” you are pointing to is just an opinion. Have you asked yourself who funded those “thousands of research papers”? Interestingly nobody talks about the mercury measuring device in their “debunking”.

            I agree, this is not the venue so I’ll drop the subject.

  17. Robert Wagner

    I think we all give Google a lot of credit for having sophisticated search results, and that is clearly not the case. It would seem that the ranking algorithm is fairly basic and uninspired.

  18. One point:

    “Britton thinks it’s “very important” for commentary from experts in the medical and legal fields to surface high in search results for relevant topics”.

    I think commentary that users choose the most should rank highest. Not people who have been given “titles” from their industry.

    Unlike Britton – I’d like to let users decide who gets placed where

  19. Authority sites for medical information always provide the most general of worthless information that ends with, see your doctor or vet. Just try asking webmd a simple question such as where on their site might I find an answer to, why do I keep losing weight? Their reply is they won’t provide medical advice for such questions that aren’t even asking for medical advice. So what you really have is an authority site that is little more then the free health magazines the supermarket provides.

  20. Chris, I am really enjoying the articles you are posting about the Panda update.

    You hit the nail on the head for sure with this one.

    Although at times eHow offers useful information, most of what I have read was a waste of my time.

    They have polluted the SERPS with millions of low quality pages that rank in top positions because of their SEO.

    How does a search engine untangle millions of good posts from poor ones? I don’t think they can.

  21. Kim

    Google just deindexed my whole ecommerce site. They just wiped out my whole business! I hope the government break them up or put those corrupt bastards in prison!

    • There was an issue with your SEO prior to Panda then. Fix the issue!

      • KIM

        What issue if they don’t tell you what the “issue” is?

        There was no issue. Site had never been affected in years. I followed all their webmaster guidelines to the T. The issue is that they need to be broken up by the government so they quit abusing their power.

      • Right, it’s never Google’s fault. Never ever ever. If they de-index your site or bury it on page 100, it must be something screwy (probably black-hat) you did. It can’t possibly be their mistake.

  22. Take a look at your stats today and compare them with your stats from 8 years ago. You might notice that you are hitting fewer IP ranges.
    I live in Asia and a big english speaking portion of the world is here but your websites are appearing less and less in this part of the world. I am seeing local sites take away your business and you can probably see it in your stats too.

  23. Joe P

    Google panda exposed……

    -> google is the largest scraper site in the world

    -> they showed us how to monetize scraped content with adsense and adwords

    -> they showed us hiring 1000′s of people around the world to click on adsense and adwords is highly profitable.

    -> mom and pops are slowly realizing they are wasting money with adsense and adwords, it is paid clickers who are clicking on the ads not real buyers

    -> panda is google’s last bit effort to make real people click on adwords links by reducing the quality of SERP top

    -> panda puts good looking sites with unreadable content, fake testimonials, at the top of SERP, sites from which intelligent people will not buy stuff so that the adwords links become authoritative business source instead of SERP top results

    still don’t understand? search for ‘website design bangalore’ and study the top result, good looking site but if you read inside pages you get the sense that this is a low quality design shack with inexperienced trainee web developers offering services at low rate, study the portfolio, all sites listed are fake sites. This is the type of non authoritative site panda would like to put at the top of SERP, so that now the adword sites look better choice than the top SERP site.

    * tldr > panda is about putting good looking low quality sites at the top of SERP, makes adwords links seem better option for buying stuff.

    • Beamer

      Now THAT makes more sense than anything I have read here. Because you know what? I fell for that today! The search results were so crappy, I clicked on a paid link.

      Thanks for revealing something I had an inkling of but just couldn’t put my finger on it. I never click paid links, but was led to do so due to shi**y Google search results.

      I was on the top of the organic SERPs for my search term two days ago. Today, gone, baby, gone. All orginal content with great information from personal experience. In spite of that, my traffic increased A LOT! Still on the top for my search terms at Bing and Yahoo.

      • Interesting viewpoint. I too have clicked a few paid ads since the Panda update for lack of any worthwhile organic results.

  24. Gordon

    Any search engine depending primarily on “link popularity” is inherently useless for anything not involving (retail) sales. I don’t use Google for real research. Ixquick and DuckDuckGo are hugely better, and they don’t ask Google either! In extremes of need, I’ll go back to the Yahoo family: AllTheWeb and AltaVista. BUT and however, Google does host the old user groups, which can be very useful — but that is hardly “searching” in the traditional sense.

  25. The search results are definitely NOT better…the sites that come up are all the sites that are well branded…people are using Google to search for things that they probably can’t find on these sites.

    It’s like that update a few years ago that brought up all the shopping sites ahead of everyone…why the hell do I need Google if I gives me sites that I have to search more on.

    I think they sort of shot themselves in the foot with this one…and here comes Bing up on the rail as Google seems to be losing speed…

    • Gordon

      We-e-elll, I guess it depends on what results you’re looking for. If you want to remain on the beaten track, Google may be able to deliver. But if you need to “go bush”, Google is a complete failure. As good example, I needed to find info on a website I knew existed. All the search engines failed — except one: IceRocket. On Icerocket, it came up on the first page. On Google it never existed, even in page 20.

      IceRocket has technical problems, but it’s heaps better than Google. Anything is better than Google — it’s all in the basic algorithm and the business paradigm.

  26. Q

    The american dietary assoc. in my opinion has not promoted the best dietary solution for diabetics and they would be considered an authourity. Low Glycemic index will substatially reduce insulin in type 1 diabetics within 6 weeks. New science and discoveries would not even be considered. Einstien was encouraged to drop out of school and get a Job.
    Q

  27. Richard Mathews

    I think it’s funny with sites like Awo think they should automatically be ranked number for their doctor directory and other sites (including lead generation sites) shouldn’t. The truth is, everyone thinks their site should outrank their competitors for traffic.. Even if it’s helpful article directory or a lead generation company, it doesn’t mean those sites are more desired if not preferred by visitors. For example, many like the having multiply quotes for insurance, loans, contractor bids, and you name it. These companies such as Lending Tree are more desirable to them, then Awos lame directory.

  28. Google continues to rank the garbage from eHow and other Demand Media sites because of the money they make working with them. They have no interest in quality of content. Demand Media pays $15 average for articles and about $30 for videos. Are they actually serious when they say that their content is relevant and authoritative in any way? This is a complete sham on the part of Google and may be the opening that other search engines can exploit. Obviously, they’re still the largest by a wide margin but they can’t continue to rank garbage from Demand Media highly in their SERPs. It’s just not going to fly forever.

  29. Richard Mathews

    I think it’s funny when sites like Awo think they should automatically be ranked number one their doctor or other searches and all other sites (including lead generation sites). I mean who doesn’t, it’s more money for AWO. The truth is, everyone thinks their site should outrank their competitors for traffic.. Even if it’s a helpful article directory or a lead generation company, it doesn’t mean those sites aren’t more desired if not preferred by visitors than your doctor reviews. For example, many like lead generating related sites because they’re seeking multiple quotes for insurance, loans, contractor bids, and you name it. These companies such as Lending Tree are more desirable to them, then Awos lame directory because it makes multiple quotes easy.

    • To me, it’s more about the content than the site. There is nothing wrong with an eHow article ranking here, if the article is written by an authoritative source (something eHow appears to be addressing in its own offerings – at least in some areas).

  30. This concept of an authority site smacks of professional snobbery.

    Yes, mt own web site is written by genuine health professionals, including a docotr, an MD, and a professor of gastroenterology, yet after being at serps one for some years, the Panda update has seen it drop to serps 5 to 7, with some serps dropping 200 positions. I see sites with no authority content above mine, and actually very poor and very little content at that – even one that tricks visitors to use an affiliate link for a hemorrhoid pill, when describing a hemroid cream!

    So, yes, Panda has definitely not had the desired results, in fact its the opposite, results are poorer and searchers are evidiendtly worse off. However, do the searchers know they are worse off, when sites like mine aren’t at the top – they probably have no idea of the porrer content they are landing on.

    So thats one side of the question. The other side refers to authority – what is an authority health site – is a chiropractor higher on the list for bone alignment than a doctor or spinal surgeon? What about someone who has gone through the procedure, are n’t they qualified to talk about the procedure and how it affected them etc. What about a freelance writer who reviews multiple preocedures coming from various professions to treat eg depression. In this case, each specialist has the right to claim authority, but only for their given speciality, eg doctor uses drugs, but are they an authority, or should we say that a doctor should then have the tag psychiatrist before being able to talk about depression?

    Then there is another angle to this concept of authority, as a psychologist I had a strong training in research and research statistics, as well as in quality literature review, so that makes me superior (?) to a freelance writer. Does that not then make me an authority of any subject I chose to write about?

    Finally, another aspect to this authority concept, is straight out lies and deception – I know health sites that claim to be written by medical professionals/students, but it is clear from their content that they are not. One site I visited actually deleted the medical authority training proclamation at one point, only to put it back in again at a later time – I don’t believe he has any medical training.

    So how is google going to police the idea of authority, as it cant go on what is found on web sites about the sites writers – heck, you could chose a doctors name from a phone book or tombstone and claim they wrote your content.

    Panda was a stuff up, and the regionalisation of results has seen some countries get results that are far inferior to that found on .com sites as well.

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