Lasnik: Stop Worrying About Page Rank

The paid links debate has been firing on all cylinders since another well-known Googler, Matt Cutts, wrote about it on his blog. He described a way to report suspected paid links; his post proved a lightning rod for search industry observers.

Cutts has been silent since then. Lasnik said in the interview with Enge that a followup from Cutts should be forthcoming; we’re anxious to see that as Matt has said he is going on vacation and offline pretty soon.

Along those lines, Lasnik said that comments from Cutts as well as a Dublin-based Googler about spam, and paid link reporting, reflect those they hear at conferences from Google’s users. “We can’t catch everything with our algorithms, although we continue to improve them,” said Lasnik.

Those PageRank worries that webmasters have should not be such a concern. Lasnik again wants them to stop thinking so much about it, as he commented on duplicate content issues:

I do know that webmasters have often times spent quite a bit of time thinking about where PageRank goes. How it flows within their site and from other sites to theirs. In general, that is not something that I would suggest the webmaster should be particularly concerned about.

Lasnik and Enge touch on duplicate content along with the paid link discussion. It’s worth a look for those who worry about what Google is doing about those issues.

We also talked about how the authenticated spam report form is going to be used. It turns out that this will not be used to decide on immediate penalties for sites that get reported. The information is simply going to be used for input into the search quality team at Google. Great news for webmasters who were worried about getting reported, as no immediate action will be taken.

Not so good news for those who want to level the playing field with competitors that are getting away with murder. Resolving those issues will still require patience.

There is a ton of good discussion in here about duplicate content, and other aspects of SEO too. Check this great interview with Adam out.

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One of the fun things about being involved with the search marketing industry is getting to meet really bright and interesting people. Whether they are long time SEO gurus, CEO’s of fast growing corporations or employees of the major search engines, this industry rarely disappoints with its variety of perspectives.

With the majority of search market share, most webmasters pay a significant amount of attention to Google. Google has done an increasingly good job of interacting with the webmaster community through the efforts of Matt Cutts and Vanessa Fox as well as Adam Lasnik. After having the chance to talk to Adam, I thought he and his job sounded pretty interesting and he agreed to do a short interview.

This interview clarifies Adam’s role with Google as well as some of the most common webmaster questions/issues, his thoughts on the common sense of site optimization (think about the user!), long but satisfying days at the Googleplex, the Google Webmaster Help Group, the increasingly important role of Google Base and his thoughts on SEO certification.

Note: with the exception of one link to Matt Cutts’ blog, all links were added by me.

Tell us about how you became a Google employee. What was involved with getting “recruited” by Matt Cutts?

I’ve been a fan of Google for quite some time, even writing up a “how to Google” tips article in early 2000 for a former employer’s internal newsletter. Also, many of my friends have worked at Google since the early days, and I was impressed by what they shared about the corporate culture. Amazing amounts of trust, freedom, and goodwill.

I was particularly intrigued by the idea of strengthening communications between Googlers and Google users, amongst groups of Googlers, and so on. As a happy coincidence, Matt and the Search Quality group had been increasingly interested in extending these sorts of conversations as well, and so you might say we sort of found each other.

Matt’s detailed the situation a bit more here: “Better Conversations”

So there’s not much more for me to add. But about eight months later, I can say that it’s been a great fit and I’m really pleased things worked out the way they did.

Please explain the webmaster liaison work you do. What sorts of questions annoy you the most? (besides that one) What have been some of the more rewarding interactions?

I think there’s a misconception that my main role is “getting out there” meeting with Webmasters, giving answers, solving specific problems, and so on. While – as someone who was Webmastering even back in’95 – I do enjoy the external aspects of my job, I think the most powerful part of what I do is internal. I’d say about 20% of my job involves interacting with Webmasters, SEOs, geeks, and even non-geeks at conferences, online, and otherwise. The remaining 80% is where the talk is translated into action. I am blessed with colleagues who care deeply about search and also about Webmasters; some of them are pretty well-known in the Webmaster community (including Vanessa, and – of course – Matt). But countless others work behind the scenes the crawl folks, the Googlers working on indexing, and so on. I’m confident that I’m helping Webmasters most when I’m tackling both the urgent as well as important-but-long-term issues with my teammates, serving as both a Webmaster advocate and facilitator internally.

As for what questions annoy me the most? There aren’t any specific ones that I find particularly frustrating. Rather, I do occasionally grow weary with two types of questions:

1. Questions that are clearly answered in our much-improved Webmaster Central, via a quick search of our Webmaster Help group, or questions that would also be likely answered via use of our Webmaster Tools. There’s no such thing as a stupid question, IMHO, but lazy questions well, that’s a different story.

2. Accusatory “questions.” I suppose I need to get some thicker skin, but it stings when people imply that we either don’t care or – worse – that a relationship between Webmasters and Google must inherently be adversarial. Every time I’ve spoken with Larry Page and Marissa Mayer they’ve made it unequivocally clear that being mindful of Webmaster concerns is something resonating not just in Search Quality, but from the very top of Google.

And thankfully, most of my interactions – with Googlers and Webmasters – have been decidedly positive. I got some incredible insights when I visited my colleagues in Dublin, Ireland (our European headquarters) as well as various Webmasters / Google users throughout Europe, all of whom offered thoughtfully global perspectives on search. Closer to home, I’ve especially enjoyed chatting with Webmasters and IT folks from non-profit organizations; these are people who often lack the resources to delve into the world of SEO, can’t even afford a week to schmooze at a conference. It’s made me think about how we (Google and all of us passionate about search) can most scalably and responsibly spread knowledge, and broadly share best search and user-experience practices in this area.

What are some of the most common issues that you’ve heard from Webmasters in terms of problems with ranking on Google? What are some of the most common solutions?

The two most common concerns we hear are:

• Hey, all or most of my pages aren’t in your index! And
• My site’s not ranking as high as I’d like or for the keywords it should show up for.

In the first case, the sites at issue tend to be relatively new, or have so few meaningful backlinks as to be practically invisible. In a few instances, the sites violate or have recently violated our Webmaster Guidelines. The solutions involve patience and/or responsible networking to garner at least a few good links. Or, when violations are an issue, then cleaning up the problem and filing a reinclusion request is the way to go.

In the second case, ranking can quite often be improved via either making one’s site more accessible / user-friendly (clearer titles, cleaner navigation) or – in a broader sense – by making the site more interesting or useful or entertaining to make for a better user experience.

Lastly, I think our FAQ on creating a Google-friendly site in particular can address many Webmaster concerns and questions both in the initial stages of making a site and also in troubleshooting.

The last time we talked, you mentioned that Google Base will play a more active role with information supplied in search results. You also mentioned that the line between the various Google services is becoming more fluid. Can you elaborate on that?

Sure. This is in line with our Google-wide push towards fewer products, more functionality and power per product. You’ve probably noticed that we took the search box off the Base page; that’s because we figure consumers would prefer doing one search instead of two. On the whole, we want to make it easier for folks to get information into Google and, of course, easier for users to find information with the least amount of effort. Another example of this is our Onebox, the “teaser” at the top of many search results pages that shows related images, Google Groups messages, and so on. Again, it’s about getting as much relevant information to the user in the most expedient and useful way.

Can you describe some ideal applications of Google Base for web site owners? How about some that are not so obvious?

I think Base is great for any individual or company that has a large amount of structured (and, perhaps often-changing) information that they’d like to share. Obvious (and currently present) data sets include real estate listings and recipes. I’d love to see some quirkier-but-still-useful applications, though. Maybe hiking trail information by city region, or broad sets of nutrition information of common foods? In the meantime, folks who want to get more familiar with Base can check out our Base quick facts and related info.

Anyone who relies on search engines for their online marketing would love to spend time getting “inside” information from Google Engineers and those “in the know” about how Google ranks web pages and other media. Since that’s unlikely, outside of Engineer availability at the annual Google Dance, what resources would you recommend for webmasters in terms of understanding search engines as a marketing tool and for learning about specific tactics?

I’m going to have to give the anti-answer to this one . I think learning tactics, per se, is sort of self-defeating; I know *I* can’t keep up with all the nuances of our algorithms because various teams are always updating them. Furthermore, if a particular tactic is likely to annoy or raise eyebrows for you or your customers, it’s likely to be exactly the sort of thing that our engineers will add as a negative signal in our algorithms. Hence, in the end – as cliched as it might sound – it really IS best to think like a user.

Along those lines do focus groups. I mean, even simple ones. Grab your dad. Your next door neighbor. Watch them navigate through your site, preferably on an older browser or slower computer, maybe even on dialup. It’s amazing (albeit sometimes painful) what you can learn by just watching, not judging. One of our key engineers pointedly debates features and defaults in our products based upon what frustrates her Mom, and while quantitative data drives decisions at the end of the day, these examples often really help shape the way we view search quality.

So, okay, maybe these things fall under the heading of common sense, and so for a more “insider” view of how we think at the Plex, I’d recommend participating in our Webmaster Help Group. Sprinkled frequently throughout the many threads you’ll find some damn good insights from other Webmasters, along with input from me, Vanessa, and other Googlers. It’s our aim to help steer the community in the right directions; we can only feasibly participate in a small fraction of threads, but over time I’m confident that best practices will be emphasized and increasingly valuable information will shine through.

Can you describe what a typical day is like for you working in the Googleplex?

Wow, that’s a toughie. As we often joke, there’s rarely a “typical” day, certainly not a dull day here. I dutifully created a detailed project/to-do list months ago, and though I do find it important to keep my eyes on long term goals, I am amazed and often amused by how much crazy stuff comes up each day.

But on the whole, I’d say a typical day consists of lots of internal collaboration (in person or via e-mail or internal Google docs), and also informal alpha testing of new products, visiting a large set of forums, blogs and other online publications, and preparing for or attending interviews or conferences.

The collaboration is most noteworthy, IMHO, because it’s practically devoid of grandstanding, politicking, or buck-passing. Most positively, the level of empowerment here is pretty uniquely high, I believe, so when folks bring up an idea for improving something, they can often just go and do it themselves. Of course, that can also be a bit daunting sometimes, too .

What’s surprising to me, I think, is the change in my thinking about work/life delineations. I’m still pretty firmly clinging to my own blog as my personal space, so I don’t think you should expect to see Googlisms there in the near future. But timewise it’s not uncommon for me to leave for work on the Google shuttle at 8:15am and get home at 9pm or later. Previously, I’d have frowned upon that as “workaholism,” but given the diversity of tasks I tackle and the flexibilty to intersperse social / personal tasks with work projects, well, it just feels comfortable and natural now. Taking breaks midday to work out at the gym or have an extended lunch with friends or attend a lecture from a renowned economist I think this sort of fluidity and flexibility might be frowned upon elsewhere, but in the end it makes me happy and also more fit mentally and emotionally.

You recently did a class in basic search engine optimization for Government sites. How did that go? Do you and/or Google plan on doing more classes for other groups?

It was my first such experience – leading a lengthy session with thankfully lots of Q&A – and it was both rewarding and enlightening. Content- and format-wise, I think the surprisingly dichotomous group (estimated at 70% gov’t folks more new to SEO vs. 30% of more experienced for-profit SEO-types) presented challenges I hadn’t anticipated, but it’s good practice for the real world . As for future projects of this sort the jury’s still out. My team and I definitely want to help and learn from as many groups of Webmasters as possible, but it’s tough to keep it scalable. Make the groups too large, and it’s like a performance, not a truly interactive session. Make the groups too small and numerous, and then I – or other folks on my team – end up spending too much time externally and not enough time getting things done on the inside. It’s a delicate balance, but something we’re thinking a lot about.

Recently the DMA launched a Search Engine Marketing Certification program. SEMPO is launching it’s own search marketing education initiative for in-house marketers and of course, Google offers the Google AdWords Professional program. Do you think it makes sense to try and “certify” search marketers?

While I understand the allure and value of that idea, I do think we’re shying away from directly certifying either individual SEOs or SEO organizations.

The market moves so fast, so frequently, that there’s a significant danger of missing the mark failing to recognize an SEO company that’s begun better focusing on user experiences or spotting (and delisting) an SEO that’s sacrificed usability for dramatic “quick fixes.” Specifically, we’re concerned about the challenge of making sure that certified individuals or companies adhere to best practices on an ongoing basis. And – unlike with AdWords – there are no immediate quantitative measures that we or Webmasters can use to assess ROI or evaluate practices. AdWords is a more controlled and measurable environment.

So I believe for now we’re preferring to play a greater role in the background helping individuals and organizations via Webmaster Tools as well as our documentation and our help group and hoping that Webmasters can use these resources to gauge the trustworthiness and knowledgability of firms they might want to do business with in the search space. But – as with everything in this industry – nothing’s set in stone.

Thanks Adam!

If you plan on attending the WebmasterWorld Pubcon conference Nov 14-17, be sure to visit Adam’s session, “SEO and Big Search” with Jake Baillie, Joe Morin, Dave Roth of Yahoo and Melanie Mitchell of AOL. Get event updates at the Pubcon blog.

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Adam’s new job is being described as a MiniMatt, a second Matt Cutts, giving Google a more honest and open voice both outside and inside the GooglePlex. Outside, he’ll be “hanging out at Webmaster conferences and various geek gatherings, occasional replying to Google-related blog or forum posts, tackling some Webmaster-related e-mails”, and inside, acting as an advocate for those of us on the outside, making sure our concerns are given equal weight inside the Plex.

I think this is beyond great. First off, I’ve been reading Bladam, his blog, for a long while, and they couldn’t have picked a better person. Adam certainly knows his stuff, and has a certain honesty and perspective severly lacking at Google. Also, Google has had a problem the last few months, with public opinion turning against them far faster than it ever did against Microsoft, and while Google isn’t considered completely “evil” yet, it hasn’t done much to fight that feeling. By hiring someone to bridge that gap between Googlers and the rest of the world, Google may not have to fight the same fight Microsoft is dealing with right now.

The fact is, there are some great people at Microsoft, most notably Scoble, who fight every day to get the world to realize how hard that company works. There are some people that are genuinely convinced that if they could get into Bill Gates’ office, they’d find plans for world domination and cheating users, for charging the hell out of customers, making Windows buggy on purpose, and a million other things. The fact is, there are tens of thousands of people at Microsoft doing their damndest to put out good products, and millions of man-hours of work gets dismissed because it comes from the “evil empire”, and the evangelists and product managers at Microsoft fight every day a losing battle against public opinion.

Google has been travelling down that same path. Worse, they’ve been better at it than Microsoft has. I think that at this point, there are many people who don’t want to trust Google anymore. There is a growing number of people who want Google to fail, so that nicer, more honest, more transparent companies, like Yahoo, can succeed. To be honest, if you gave Yahoo everything Google has created, but let Yahoo keep its corporate culture, would you prefer it to the Google we have? Maybe, maybe not, but the idea sounds so tempting.

I want Google to succeed. I don’t want them to crush all comers (I’d like it if Microsoft, Yahoo, Ask and AOL all succeeded as well), but I do feel a certain affinity for Google. I don’t trust Google, and I trust them less every month, but I still like them, and respect them, and I hope that they face they present is as inaccurate as the face Microsoft used to present. I hope I’m wrong about Google, and I think the entire internet hopes so too.

Hiring someone whose job is to be honest with the rest of the world, and to bring some honesty into the closed community that is Google, could not come at a better time, and is a needed shot in the arm for a company that has earned every bit of bad press Google has received. It isn’t enough, but it is a great start. Microsoft hiring Scoble was a great start, and things have improved from there. Lets see Google build from this, and start treating its users with respect.

Here’s part of what Adam has to say, in explaining it on his blog:

My main focus is on broadening communications between Google and Webmasters learning as much as I can from both Matt and the Webmasters he chats with so amiably and then building upon this rapport. Or, more colloquially, as it’s been joked around the office, my uber-challenging goal is to become a “MiniMatt.” Though a colleague did note that a MiniMatt sounds like a scary cross between a convenience store and a diminutive vaccum cleaner. Hmm.

I’ll also be a “Webmaster Advocate” inside the Googleplex. I’ve seen firsthand that tons of folks here already eagerly read and appreciate Google- and search-related comments throughout the Web; I’ll be doing what I can to expedite concerns, bug reports, and other feedback to the right colleagues.

And Matt says on his:

But I can’t always keep up with everything going on outside Google, especially when I’ve got a traditional set of duties in the quality group and webspam. In normal Google tradition, when you have too much work for one CPU to do, you shard it across multiple computers. So I asked my manager if I could shard myself, and my manager said yes. After that, I kept my eyes open for people that I’d seen around the web and respected. I wanted someone with knowledge of search and who was intelligent, nice, patient, and well-spoken. When I saw that Adam was available, I invited him down to lunch, and I liked him a lot.

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Nathan Weinberg writes the popular InsideGoogle blog, offering the latest news and insights about Google and search engines.

Visit the InsideGoogle blog.