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52 commentsWednesday, January 14, 2009
Once Again, Websites Not Liable For User Stupidity
On the Web, no one knows you’re only 14
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52 Comments
Online dating websites
Online dating websites sometimes have people lying about things.
See this thread:
http://www.okcupid.com/forum?low=21&tid=7223997838631196585
de Foudras,Senior Officer, Interpol
You keep talking about all these sites that Interpol is supposed to be watching over. Well, I just got off the phone with the head of the Interpol Office here in New York City and I have some questions for you.
1. What division of Interpol do you work out of that you devote so much time to verifying internet users ages?
2. What does John Simpson (USA), Ivan Barbot (France), Bjorn Eriksson (Sweden) and KHOO Boon Hui (Singapore) all have in common and how does it relate to the function of Interpol?
3. What is the name of your supervisor?
4. What is the name of the current General Secretariat and which country is his office in?
You can answer these questions, or you can quit the charade and admit that you are not a member of Interpol. You see, real Interpol officers rarely, if ever, identify themselves as such unless they are involved in an international case. They are, after all, members of their own governments national police forces such as the FBI, MI6, KGB and the alike.
Furthermore, Interpol does not have a computer crimes division of their own but rather leaves that up to individual countries to handle. That is what makes it so hard to stop the email fraud letters from supposed bank presidents overseas.
That being said and the liar revealed, I shall now move on and address the issue at hand...
______________________________________________________
There are problems all around with this issue. First is the fact that if people would learn to keep their legs crossed until after marriage they would know how old their partner is and it would never be an issue, whether on the internet or in real life.
Picking up people in bars is just as dangerous since you have no way of knowing what that other person may be carrying and in a drunken stupor you may do something you would not normally do when in your right mind. That is why some states are now ruling that having sex with a partner who has been drinking is considered rape, regardless of age as the parties are not of a right mind to make such a decision. CAVIAT EMPTOR PEOPLE!!!
Then there is the matter of parents not being parents. I am not considered strict by any stretch of the imagination but my children all know that their bodies are sacred and they should not go jumping into bed with every Tom, Dick or Harry that comes along for the girls and every Jane, Susan or Cathy that comes along for the boys. I took the time to talk to my children about sexual issues from the time they were 6 or 7 and I have continued with those talks right up through today. My children do not wear anything that is sleeveless, cut low in the front, cut too high down below nor revealing of their mid sections. They dress modestly. The only exception is my one son who is on the swim team at school and he has 2 pairs of swim trunks, one that are like short pants (without the zipper or clasp at the top) for his regular swimming and one pair of Speedos for his swim meets. At the meets, however, he is in special "tear away" pants that have velcro up the sides of the legs so he can pull them off quickly while he is not racing.
When you see parents doing their jobs like they are supposed to in the first place, then you will see a lot of this nonsense come to a screeching halt on the internet.
Answer to Kriticism
I am sorry to say,that here we have one of the persons online who like to play "correctors" and "educate"peopel.
He/she could also belong to any criminal group we deal with,online.
The questions he/she ask, have as purpose, only to redicule but also to disclose information that noone outside Interpol have the right to know.
When i read the questions, i was astonished that this,anonymous person,didnt ask for my:Date of birth,my CV(so he can..in his pompouse state,play he have scills to determine academical matters),my social securitynumber,the current adress and the size of my shoes etc etc.
Then i read the qestions again and understand now, that there could even be connection with those criminal groups that we actually deal with,online.
The answer to some of the questions,can be found on our website:
http://www.interpol.org
It is most likely that the person here,have got the idea to ask questions with answers on our website,to sound more informed.
Together with the claim of having a call with one of our offices, he/she propably think noone can question what he/she writes.
But, with the answer of question 1 and 3,a criminal org with good scills in computers and internet,could make our work in this field much harder ,with attacks on these persons , in many ways.
These caracters are not only fearles but also often smart.
It is much money involwed in the online live chatt business with private sessions and websites offering sexual content,with illegal parts.
Leaving Internet to its destiny, is therefore like firing a bomb into a house of TNT.
The effect would be undoubtfully catastrofy.
The most peopel understand this and also understand that if we was not present online,the www would be even worse than today.
Ofcourse we who work at INTERPOL can disclose that we actually work for IP.
We are in that sence ,not secret agents 007Bond.(Silly thought)
But,our real names are never disclosed,in international projects,
like The International Computer Divison and its division of Online
crimeprevention and other things we deal with,online.
This is due to securityprecautions for all working with this.
Interpol officers are NOT working within the countries secret services.
However,Interpol cooperates with most countries Secret Services.
I think this critic have mixed the work of Interpol and Europol.
Europol is a organisation who makes europan countries policeforces abel to cooperate in projects.
Thus,all involwed at Europol,contains of members of Policeforces from all Europol countries.
Interpol, on the other hand, have its own staff of Police, in most of the world.
We cooperate with both local Policeforces as well as secret services.
This ,the person here questioning me,should have known,if he/she really have had a contact with any of our offices.
Without INTERPOL online, not even the most seriouse "parental care" wold have any effect.
Kids allways find ways to go around what a parent order.
Our work is mostly to determine the age of "boys and Girls" who perform sexual content,in private sessions,on live chatts, not who buy credits to see one of these sessions.(even if that is also done now and then)
But this is only one of the things we at INTERPOL do.
There is a nmber of crimes that have moved into www.
sextrade(offerings of prostitution to be carried out outside www)
Identity-theft (from creditcards and other transactions online)
Frauds of diferent kind etc etc
As the last thing here, I can state the fact,that yet another "besservisser" or possibly even one of the criminal we deal with online,thinks that common peopel and we at Interpol,are dumb.
The Lier can not breake the trust we at INTERPOL have.
de.Foudras,Senior Officer,Interpol
Thats the problem with the
Thats the problem with the internet you cant actually tell if someone you talk to tells the truth. How well you verify the actual age online anyways?
Hummmmmmmmmmmmm
I agree sounds like someone has gotten into some trouble.. hope the heck it wasn't You..
Norman Flecha
I'm a 38 year old woman with
I'm a 38 year old woman with a daughter of my own, so should be able to tell a girl's real age; at least you'd think.
However, I've seen girls wandering around our town that I would swear are 18 - 19 - 20 years old, only to find out later they're 13 -15 years old.
Personally, I think it's wrong to punish the male in such cases, at least if the girl acts and looks older than she is, in addition to lying about her age.
It's a sad fact children are growing up very quickly for a variety of reasons; my parents said much the same thing when I was growing up in the 80s.
Girls who lie about their age to boys and young men should face some kind of penalty for doing so. While some states are instituting what's called a '2 yr rule' (say an 18 yr old has consenting sex with a 16 yr old, he won't end up being charged as a pedophile, etc), many others haven't.
There are quite a few young men now permanently labelled as sexual predators because a girl lied about her age to them or her parents found out they were having sex and filed charges.
Kids have sex. It happens. They're curious, or have other reasons (family problems, etc) that drive them into it. It's going to happen, and when it does, if there's punishment to be dealt out over it, then it needs to be dealt out to both parties equally in cases like this.
Reg.Estimation of age
Yes, you are right.
For an untained eye,ist is very hard to determine a persons age,who have enter puberty.
But for us,who have worked with children, a long time within both medicine and surgery,it is everything else than the ;Mammae(breasts), the pubic/vaginal hair,and the size of a sexual organ, that wee look at.
The human body develope,in each parts,differently,between certain ages,despite puberty.
That is what we have to look at.
The determination of age is almost 89% correct.
de.Foundras.Senior Officer,Interpol
Bump to that. It' happening
Bump to that. It' happening parents, don't for a second think your lil' Mary or Johnny isn't into some level of self sexual discovery.
These young girls trying to portray themselves as older persons to gain contact with older males should be charged with falsifying with intent to deceive. As for the older males, wake up dudes, look at the girl see her for what she is which is a child and get the hell outta there.
ANOTHER 14 year old idiot
hey, the girls just another 'standard issue' great all amercian whore. end of story.
Jerk
Jerk
I hope you have daughters.
I hope you have daughters.
"another 14 year old idiot"
Dude, that may be the most ignorant post I have read on a message board in my entire life. The law grants special status to those who have not yet reached adulthood for a reason, they are not old enough to make proper decisions. The power of discernment have not yet formed. A very condescending and judgment comment.
on the post of standard issue whore, etc.
That's exactly on target, you also don't how old these bloggers are. It's like a 14 yr. old. comment, by a potentially 14 year old, but then again how old is that kid that wrote the how to talk to girls book, he's probably less than 14, and look how much press, he's getting. No doubt some poor 20 yr. old college student somewhere is spending good education coin on researching a kid' s opinion for a "paper", as though we all somehow forgot what kids are like, and what they are capable of, intelligence wise. Or NOT capable of, etc. As good as it gets on-line, it is really is in danger of becoming one big flashy teenage magazine. Peace!
Young 'n Dangerous
For goodness sake... What's wrong with the old fashioned method of meeting potential sex partners in person at a bar or club? Are people losing the art of face to face conversation and seduction?
We all know that there is an extremely high incidence of deception on the net... So why would any rational person put themselves at risk in this manner?
Reg.the liability of websites
Actually,Mr Miller is totally wrong about the liability of the websites,
conserning the age of performers.
He is totally right about how redicolous some Live chatt web sites check the ages of connected performers.
And most websites administrators and registrators of performer accounts,dont have the proper knowledge,to check fake passports and other ID-documents up.
The hugest amount of fake ID documents,is in Asia,with Manila as base.
However, we at Interpol are present at most of these chattsites online and in some cases we cooperate with the sites,to clean the sites from minors.
We have highly skilled Doctors,who are specialised to look on the development of the human body,to secure a persons age.
Some of these doctors are also psychologists,who chatt with the performers,also to collect psychological evidence of age.
So, we are doing all we can out there.
About 20 volontairorganisations cooperates with us as well.
Sincerely
de.Foudras, Senior Officer,Interpol.
What a crock, Interpol you
What a crock, Interpol you say? I doubt that you are. No one can tell the age of a person just by viewing them on a webcam. I think maybe you are viewing these young people for other improper reasons.
Which is why better security measures are needed to ensure minors are kept off these chat sites.
Stupid comments
I see on your comment, that you have little or rather no medical knowledge at all, to even comment these matters.
And the provocative insult of what you "think",is so imature that i dont even comment that.
We and also volontair organisations do a hard work to try to keep minors from doing these offences and from beeing victims of men and women,who prey sexually,on minors.
Btw..you popp up here and there with provocations here.
What is your problem?
Reg.the liability of websites
Hi, de.Foudras
Along with my best friend, I operate a discussion group online. It's not a sex search type group. It is a support group of sorts.
The public can read our posts, but they cannot post or answer. Nor can they get the e-mail addresses of members. To post or answer, they must become a member, and we have very strict entry requirements. Besides the automatic age checker that the software provided, we ask for full name, complete verifiable address and answers to four questions. If even one item out of this considerable list is missing, my friend and I deny membership, with recourse in only one minor instance on the app. Then, for those allowed a second app, if anything is missing, we deny with no recourse. If we find that a member has lied about his or her age, they are unceremoniously banned.
This is a very tight arrangement, and undoubtedly younger applicants and those who don't want to disclose any personal information think it is unfair, but if we are to continue the service we offer to those members of humanity who wish to be informed, we have to stay out of jail.
So far, after a little more than a year in operation, this plan is working just fine. Still, if a member of any policing organization were to try to apply, we only ask that you abide by our rules, and you will be welcome. If not, you don't get in, either. I'm sorry, but that's the way we have to do it.
Blessings
What is the liability of a
What is the liability of a website that publishes potentially dangerous content?
Is the website liable if instructions on how to perform dangerous acts are detailed, such as drug use, drug manufacturing, weapon use, weapon modifications, etc, etc?
What if the website is a chat room/board? Is the website liable if a chat user advises another chat user how to use certain drugs for example?
drugs and weapons
At this point, it is not illegal to tell anyone about drugs and weapons,how they work and how to use them.
However, it is illegal,internationally,to "suggest anyone to use" or "suggest sale of"both drugs and weapons.
de.foudras.Senior officer,Interpol
I forgott something
In the matter of not knowing the age,at datingsites or other sites wich is for makng friends and possible sexcontacts,the only way and rule is to ask for a ..c2c session.
Mostl adults recognise a child when they see them.
It is the liability of a website with live chattrooms, if the performers are minors.
Thats the reson to why noone should give their ; YM,Aim,msn,ICQ or other direct messanger id to the performers.
de.Foudras,Senior Officer,Interpol
It is known that internet is anything but safe
So first rule is checking everything you find out there. Especially is your life is on the line. But i presume that the guy was not really bothered by the idea of a minor ....
websites not at fault
this is a disturbing topic. although i own an online adult store and it displays the "must be 18 to enter" warning... you cannot be sure it is an adult viewing the products... even with a credit card to purchase, you dont know if it is a child using the credit card.
That being said... websites are one problem...its the disgusting ignorant low lifes that pick up sex partners off the internet...why not just go to a bar and pick up someone else looking for the same thing! I haven't been in a chat room in forever! only because they are pretty much only for meeting potential sex partners.
Only Losers have to hide behind a computer to get their rocks off and they get everything they deserve for meeting up with a minor even if they "thought she/he was of age". its bullshit...everyone knows just by watching "to catch a predator" that the majority of men/women online are predators looking for minors.
Kidding right?
You must be kidding if you really think that. Good to be cautious, not good to be paranoid. If you believe that then you must believe the majority f the population in general are predators too,right? Wake up.
I think the statement "the
I think the statement "the majority of men/women online are predators looking for minors" might be just a little off.
Alternatives for prowling!
It is not a good idea to date so close to that line of demarcation on the Internet. Looks can be deceiving as you know. If her mom keeps cellphoning her to see how she is doing on the date, that's a bad sign. If she has berets and rubber bands in her hair, that's a bad sign.
Ask her what bills does she have? When did she graduate? Look at her ID card, and make sure it's not her auntie.
Say:I thought you said you were 20, when she says 19. See if she gets nervous or confused. Catch her in a lie if you suspect something. Then get up and leave the table, and go home to your wife and kids, they probably need you.
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Check it out
Sounds like the voice of experience?!
Personal responsibility long gone...
>>If you go to a regular library and there is an ad for sex in one of the books, and you respond to the ad and get a bad disease or worse you get done for having sex with an under-age girl, sorry, its not the library fault.
It's not the library's fault, but unfortunately there will be people who will sue the library regardless. Just as a guy can pilot a private plane, have an accident and kill someone on the ground, and the relatives of the victim will not ony sue the pilot's estate, but the maker of the plane as well. It's all about getting their hands on the biggest pot of money.
And don't forget the drycleaners who lost a guy's $200 pair of pants. He sued them and it ended up costing them one of their two stores in legal fees, even though they *won* the case. But because lawyers make $200 an hour or more, and like to drag things out, lawsuits will never go out of style.
duped
If a 14 year old girl wants to meet someone for sex, adult or not, who is going to stop her.
I suppose that the parents can chain her to the house, and I have witnessed this practice, but that may result in arrests for the parents.
At some point in life, we all need to and are expected to accept responsibility for ourselves, however some folks never do.
Some of us are ready early in life, as evidenced by frontier life, and some never are.
It is very interesting that a guy can be looked upon with admiration if he bangs a 18 year old girl and be despised and jailed if he should get duped by a 17 year old girl.
That's good news...
As a web site owner of safety and security products (http://officialsafetyandsecurity.com), I'm glad to hear we're not liable if the visitor lies.
My products are not supposed to be purchased by minors but I have no way of making sure a minor isn't using their parent's credit card and ordering something for themselves.
So far it hasn't been a problem but you never know. Thanks, Jason, for this great article.
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